This update will allow mouse users to rotate up to the full suit cap just like DS3 and Move.

Should appease the people who were crying about not being able to aim properly.

I wish I could believe that's what they're doing. I'm pretty sure no turn speed cap on mouse aim means NO turn speed cap, which means they can insta-spin all they want and sixaxis players will be (not for the first time) at a severe and blatantly unfair disadvantage.

I've been playing FPS games since Doom, and I went through Quake, Tribes, XS and UT (among others) along the way before I moved to primarily being a console gamer. I still play PC games occasionally, and some of them are shooters, but it isn't a common occurence for me these days. In spite of that, I know how those games work, I have been good at them in the past, and it wouldn't take long to get back up to speed.

But guess what? NONE OF THAT IS RELEVANT TO THE PROBLEM SIXAXIS USERS HAVE WITH MOUSE CONTROL.

Sure, there are some idiots saying that CCP shouldn't let people use mouse and keyboard. Those people are idiots, there's no denying that. But there are LEGITIMATE concerns about what CCP are doing to mouse control in 1.4, and those have NOTHING to do with how skilled or experienced you are.

A total noob on their first day playing a typical current-gen PC FPS can insta-180 with a mouse in most games because it's easy to do. They may not be able to line up that perfect headshot like a pro, but PC gamers know not to rely on the element of surprise, because it barely lasts the tiniest fraction of a second before the other player is shooting back. On consoles, the slower turning rates enforced by the sixaxis controller emphasise the stealthy approach of hitting from behind and keeping out of harm's way. We have to use other tactics to counter a backstabbing enemy, and those skills aren't nearly as valuable on PC as they are on console, because many of them are based around the same turn speed cap that makes it more difficult to get the attacker in your sights in the first place.

Neither set of skills makes a person a "better" or "worse" FPS player, but the two styles require very different skillsets.

There have been PC FPS games in the early days which had limited turn speed, and some of them enjoyed some success for a short time before being squashed by the big names that dominated the industry. In those games, you typically saw the same kind of tactics that are common in console shooters, because (obviously) they had the same rules.

DUST needs to balance the control schemes with turn speed caps. There is no way to have a console game with optional mouse and keyboard control and to have mouse turning totally unlimited without negating any sense of fairness in control schemes.

If they do what I'm expecting, I have a keyboard and mouse, so I'll still be able to play, but I will choose not to until they fix the game, because I play the game on my couch, and there isnt' a comfortable place for me to set up a mousepad and play the game. If necessary, I can do it, but it's not necessary. It's a GAME. Games are meant to be FUN, and if I have more FUN playing a game using my sixaxis controller, I'm going to do that instead of playing DUST, which forces me NOT to use it.

I do actually.

But I'm not talking about ADJUSTING and MAINTAINING aim, just getting there in the first place close enough to hit the target.

I actually addressed the fact that you still need to line your shots up for accuracy, if you bothered to read what I said.

It took me less than 30 seconds to get the hang of quick-turning and stopping almost exactly on my target ready to line up a shot when I first picked up XS, which I got before Quake. I had to tweak the sensitivity on the mouse when I picked up Quake so it was comfortable, but once I did that, I was perfectly comfortable doing the same thing there almost immediately.

I don't see what your mention of "aimbots" has to do with this conversation, either. I don't use them, and even aim assist (which, contrary to popular delusion, is NOT the same thing) is something I usually turn off when given the choice. In the current state of DUST, I'm unfortunately forced to turn aim assist on, because CQC does weird things to my control sensitivity and breaks the game when I turn it off. Aim assist doesn't have time to kick in during most CQC battles in DUST, so other than turning off a glitch, it doesn't have much impact on my usual playstyle.

So... literally minutes of "practice and experience" for a computer-literate gamer being all that's required to hard-counter a valid tactic that's been learned, relearned, countered, and had the counters learned and anticipated with their own tactics. Yep, sounds fair.

EDIT: I'm not arguing that you shouldn't be able to use your mouse, or that you shouldn't be able to have the ability to turn at full speed with a mouse then shift immediately into precision aim just by changing how fast you're moving it. I just want mouse aim to be limited with the same turn speed cap that the sixaxis controller has, becase not having that is why the PS3 side of UT3 died, and is part of the reason why Shadowrun died. The other part is that instead of properly balancing the control schemes, they added aim assist that was FAR too effective (to the point where "aimbot" is probably appropriate).

Probably not coincidentally, it was the fine aiming that DS3 users got ticked off with. And still are.

It's nothing to do with money.

It's a console and prolly set up in a living room and there's prolly other peeps in the house using it and it's a giant pain in the ass to set up a kb/m or even just mouse for use on the couch.

Actually, I have a desk. Where my PS3 is. Where my kb/m is. And all of my prior FPS experience is with kb/m. Do you have any other over-specific and totally irrelevant arguments? We're talking about the entire DS3 playerbase here.

I'm just going to point out that the only problem I had with the old mouse control (where they used raw input) was when there were glitches allowing mouse users to circumvent the turn speed cap, or when they blatantly removed it at one point.

The fine aim complaint is NOT a problem because it's balanced by the precision movement allowed by the left stick, which WASD movement will never match.

A good player with a sixaxis controller and competently-implemented controls (which are unfortunately lacking in DUST on our end as well) can handle fine aim perfectly fine.

I don't want them to keep mouse aim in the current state, and have never, at any point, said that I do want that. I want them to FIX mouse aim, not break it in the opposite direction like they keep doing. They go from one extreme to the other constantly. The controls for sixaxis are still problematic, and the controls for mouse aim get broken in different ways with every revision.

I hope they fix the mistakes they made and make it so mouse aiming works properly, but I don't want a repeat of the last time players were using a mouse without a turn speed cap, because it's been game-breaking before, and it will be game-breaking again.

Because everything isn't always about what gives you the biggest min/max advantage. Many people prefer using a gamepad.

If you can't see the difference between gamepad and uncapped KBM, you probably suck at FPS. Considering I'm relatively sure you don't suck at FPS, I have to assume that you can see the difference and are just looking to argue.

IMO, FPS is more fun with the DS3 than with a KBM, but "fun" is obviously subjective. Sure, it's less precise, but if everyone has the same limitations on their precision (from having to use the DS3) then it is a moot point. Once we add KBM into the picture things get muddied. The problem here is that this is a console title, and thus it's safe to assume that most people who are likely to play Dust 514 are in agreement with me on this one.

If the caps for KBM are removed, what you are suggesting is exactly what is going to happen. All of the good players will learn to use KBM (or stop being a "good player"), and all the "normal" PS3 people will be put at a huge disadvantage. The gameplay will change in a fundamental way. Less thought will be given to positioning and FOV, and more on twitch reaction and a person's ability to do the 180 Twist and Wiggle.

That's fine for anybody who wants to play a PC style KBM FPS, but how many PS3 users do you honestly think fall into that category? You think the playerbase is small now? Just wait until this is a game where you have to plug in a Keyboard and Mouse just to keep up. Yeah, that should really excite the target demographic.

I'm just going to point out that the only problem I had with the old mouse control (where they used raw input) was when there were glitches allowing mouse users to circumvent the turn speed cap, or when they blatantly removed it at one point.

The fine aim complaint is NOT a problem because it's balanced by the precision movement allowed by the left stick, which WASD movement will never match.

A good player with a sixaxis controller and competently-implemented controls (which are unfortunately lacking in DUST on our end as well) can handle fine aim perfectly fine.

I don't want them to keep mouse aim in the current state, and have never, at any point, said that I do want that. I want them to FIX mouse aim, not break it in the opposite direction like they keep doing. They go from one extreme to the other constantly. The controls for sixaxis are still problematic, and the controls for mouse aim get broken in different ways with every revision.

I hope they fix the mistakes they made and make it so mouse aiming works properly, but I don't want a repeat of the last time players were using a mouse without a turn speed cap, because it's been game-breaking before, and it will be game-breaking again.

That i can agree with... i never been a fan of the "instant turn kill" thing.. not even in PC games. But the mouse shouldn't feel like a virtual analog controller ... that is just wrong.

I've played with KBM, the Move Motion Controller (which I bought just to try it out), and the DS3.

The aiming with the mouse is astronomical (much better than the shakey Move Controller), I mean huge, as in it upped my game to break a previous k/d barrier I was having, to the point where I actually do a mouse and DS3 combination to secure constant head shots. The only reason why I still cling to the DS3 is because I am also working on my piloting, which the DS3 does a lot smoother due to actually benefiting from its own deadzone in this particular case.

Aim assist is turned off for everyone since 1.3 buddy.

I turn off aim assist in any game by default. So no, I dont have miracle kills.

Actually, yes.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/ms-killed-pc-xbox-cross-platform-play

"Is this why the project was killed? Who knows, but I'd love to hear from anyone involved - what happened?"

Occam-¦s Razor

Your theory is deeply embedded in you personal gaming ideology, methinks, and resists evidence to the contrary.

What kind of creepy console players have you met?

I have no idea how I could be using a controller if I didnGÇÖt use my upper torso, both hands, all my fingers, both my arms, shoulders and my neck. Do you think we lie down placidly on our sides using four fingers to somehow move the controller? What? How? Maybe some people have these awesome controllers that hold them upright and move their hands for them, but I sure donGÇÖt have one. I use six fingers to move and whatnot (thumbs on sticks/buttons, index fingers L1/R1, middle fingers L2/R2) and the other four are actually holding the controller in my hands. If I let go of those, the controller has this funny habit of falling from my hands.

And what comes to KB/M and controller debate, the mouse will always be superior as your hand-eye coordination is better than your thumb-eye coordination. It is easier to follow a target using your entire hand instead of just your thumb. My problem is not with the mouse, I can aim that perfectly fine, my problem is with the keyboard. I donGÇÖt find it comfortable and I donGÇÖt have anywhere I could actually put it while I play, nor the mouse for that matter. I have desk that is on the other side of the room and for me to use it I would have to change everything around. But thatGÇÖs not the biggest issue; my biggest issue is that I have no interest in playing at a desk. I play console games to sit on my couch comfortably, not at a desk where I already have to spend most of my day (working at an office). When I come home I want none of that.

Little fingers hooked under controller for support, with palms gripping.
Ring fingers on L2/R2.
Middle fingers on L1/R1.
Index fingers on d-pad and face buttons.
Thumbs on sticks. Controller held above lap while sitting up straight.

Pretty sure I'm using more than just 4 fingers like that.

Alternatively, AC Grip.
Thumbs on shoulder buttons.
Index and middle fingers on face buttons.
Ring fingers on sticks.
Little fingers and palms supporting controller.

As opposed to how I used to play PC FPS games.

Slumped across a chair with a beanbag on it, hand resting on the edge of table, with fingers on keyboard, and my other hand reting on the mouse only needing to slide around, not holding anything up with any part of my body except my neck.

Yep. Console gaming is definitely the "lazy" option. That's why I do it.

Wow you're weird. You need to keep track of every key on the keyboard even though you're only using about 15 of them? I don't get it...

Also, most functions are in easy thumb reach without needing to move fingers from the movement keys, so I tend to not bother wasting effort on moving my hand all over the keyboard just to get at the spacebar.

You also said you can't comfortably use your keyboard laying down. On the rare occasions where I've pulled my KB/M setup out for DUST, I've been more comfortable laying down across my couch with a wooden chopping board tohold the mousepad.

And while you just need to twitch a finger with no thought beyond "twitch" to achieve movement, I have to move my thumb in a specific direction relating to where I want my character to go. The thought involved in making precise direction-specific movements as opposed to "twitch" is much more complex and involved.

Lastly, for someone computer-literate, you generally have at least an approximation of the position of most keys settled into your mind even when you don't normally play games on PC, so arguing that you need that "specialised" knowledge and/or experience doesn't really apply in a world where the majority are computer literate.

...yeah, this argument was getting stupid before it even started... Fun though!

You need to keep track of every key on the keyboard even though you're only using about 15 of them

With mouse control, KB/M has an analog style input. This means theoretically infinite inputs on that function alone, negating the argument about buttons.

But wait! Console players use dual analog sticks! INFINITE INPUTS... TWICE! And unlike the mouse, which gives you a WHOLE HAND to make those inputs, you only get to use ONE THUMB for each INFINITE INPUTS stick!

More seriously though, you use about 15 buttons between keyboard and mouse, to reproduce the functions provided by... about 15 buttons... on the sixaxis controller.

Either way, you have to learn which button is where on whichever control type you're using, and become fluent in accessing those buttons at a moment's notice. There really isn't a solid argument about one or the other requiring more thought in a game where every function can be handled with a sixaxis controller.